The recent spate of retrospective features and a fresh wave of excitement that's greeted the new Morrissey album has reminded the greater public what the discerning of us always knew: that The Smiths remain one of the most important bands of the past thirty years.
However, while no-one's disputing Morrissey and Marr's greatness, The Smiths were a brilliant four-man unit and the importance of superb rhythm section Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce cannot be denied either. W&H had already been lucky enough to speak to Andy in some detail recently, but when we had the opportunity of a chat with Mike as well we were overjoyed.
Mike has recently joined forces with Andy again and is occupying the drum stool in excellent Manchester-based singer/ songwriter Vinny Peculiar's band. The conversation gradually weaves its' way around to this exciting project and the present, but - lest we forget - Mike has also played with luminaries such as Julian Cope and John Lydon (in PIL) since The Smiths' halcyon days, and has a fascinating history in his own right. He's also an absolute joy to speak to and immediately helps W&H to feel totally welcome.
Let's start by going right back to the beginning and your formative influences, Mike. I've read previously that watching Buzzcocks' drummer John Maher was the catalyst for you to become a musician?
"Yeah, that's right," replies Mike.
"I'd been messing around at home, drumming with knitting needles and bits and bobs (laughs), but when I saw The Buzzcocks play at a club called The Mayflower in Belle Vue (Manchester) and I saw John - it was an epiphany."
Kind of "I have to do that"?
"Totally," emphasises Mike.
"I felt just that. It wasn't a passing interest any more. He was so rhythmic, plus it helped it was The Buzzcocks, who are still my favourite group ever. They were just so different to me to any band I'd seen before."
How do you mean?
"Well, before then I'd always thought all bands were dead serious, but the Buzzcocks were really tongue-in-cheek. Plus they covered all bases musically - they could be really poppy, they had three-minute thrashers, they could be dead heavy, all their songs were a little different and it made all the difference. Bit like Vinny's songwriting now, actually."
Right. But before you joined The Smiths, you were in two nascent punk outfits The Hoax and Victim. Did you do any recording with these bands and was it an enjoyable "teeth-cutting" experience?
"Yeah, it was," says Mike.
"Both bands did a bit of recording. With The Hoax, we did a single, and EP and a track for a compilation and Vctim did an EP. Nothing really came out of it, but at the time that wasn't the point."
It was more about getting a record out, like The Buzzcocks' with "Spiral Scratch"?
"Yeah, that's it," replies Mike, enthusiastically.
"It's that feeling of actually having the record in your hand and to be able to say "I'm on this!" "Yes!"....that's an amazing feeling. I can't begin to describe how important it feels at 16 or 17 to make a record when you've only been playing in someone's front room or a scout hut or whatever, and then to make a record and suddenly people might actually pay to come and see you play - even if it's a support thing."
It's refreshing to hear a seasoned professional still feel so enthusiastic in a world full of jaded musicians...
"Yeah, I've never lost that feeling I'm glad to say," notes Mike.
"I felt equally excited when The Smiths' recorded (first single) "Hand In Glove". I've never been blase. Obviously I want to play to laods of people, but whether it's 20 people or 20, 000, I'm happy as long as I enjoy it."
Your first rehearsal with the fledgling Smiths is quite well-documented because you'd taken magic mushrooms prior to the audition/ rehearsal. Can you remember what songs Johnny and Morrissey had at the very beginning?
"I can't really remember them having any songs as such that first time," Mike recalls.
"It was more important to see if I fitted in visually. It was more a question of what I looked like, really. I remember Johnny knocking out riffs and I would jam along a bit."
"But you must remember," adds Mike, "that The Smiths was very different from a regular band line-up. I mean, I've since been in bands where you walk in and there's a plan and it's all sorted, but The Smiths was very different. It was actually Morrissey's first band! It wasn't like "here's a cassette of the songs, go away and learn them," that wasn't the case at all."
Andy wasn't on board at the very beginning either, was he?
"No, " says Mike.
"Dale (Hibbert), the original bassist, couldn't really play, though admittedly I may not have been all that conscious of him as my 'appetiser' (the mushrooms - Ed) was kicking off during the rehearsal. I'd only taken them ten minutes before turning up at the rehearsal."
Was there a defining moment during the band's first few months where you thought: "God, this is really gonna take off big style"?
"Yeah, one thing that sticks in my mind is one rehearsal early on," says Mike.
"We used to rehearse at (manager) Joe Moss's clothes shop, Crazy Face, and my brother had come up from London. He'd hung out and watched us and afterwards he came over and said "This band are good". I said, yeah, I think so...and he goes: "No, Mike, this band is REALLY good, VERY good.""
"Actually, I remember ging back to my flat in Whalley Range later on and saying to my flatmate about how we could maybe be the next Psychedelic Furs, because they were flavour of the month at the time. I couldn't believe you could get bigger than that (laughs)."
What did you make of Morrissey in the early days?
"I found him really interesting," says Mike openly.
"I mean, musically it was obvious Johnny was an amazing guitarist and Andy was a fine musician too. I thought Morrissey had charisma, but I didn't concentrate on his lyrics too much in the early days. We had an amicable relationship, but it was very much the thing that we had our friends and he had his. He didn't wanna hang aroung with our friends and we didn't with his. That was fine, very amicable."
I put these next two questions to Andy as well: Firstly, do you have a favourite Smiths album?
"Definitely "Strangeways Here We Come",says Mike firmly.
"The others sound great, too, but I like the way that one came together. It was different to the others in that we hadn't gigged it, so it was an interesting process."
Unlike the usual: album, tour, write songs, tour with new songs, then record album treadmill?
"Yeah," because with the other three albums we'd always tried out the new songs over three months on the road. "Strangeways..." was very much us all enjoying impressing each other. I always think of it as "Our" album in that while Johnny wrote the music, there's a lot more interaction between all four of us and there's so many great tracks on there."
There seems to be a rumour still hanging around that it was a difficult album to make and it caused the band to ultimately split, though Andy was also effusive about the fun you had making that album...
"Yeah, it's all nonsense about their being a bad atmosphere during those sessions," scotches Mike.
"There was a great atmosphere and it was the most enjoyable one to make. To give you an idea, I have a photo of Johnny, Andy and myself from those sessions where we're all huddled round a mic in the studio, and it shows how much of a laugh it was."
Second related question: which Smiths songs are you happiest with because of your own performance?
"Oh God, that's a difficult one," Mike exhales.
"The thing is, we never left a song unless all of us were happy with it, so I could say the whole lot!(laughs)."
"But, if I'm pushed," he continues, "I really like "Nowhere Fast," "London", "What She Said" and "Death Of A Disco Dancer". Also "Shoplifters Of The World Unite", because apart from it being a big song, It was really funny the way the drums were recorded."
Oh yeah? Tell us more...
"We recorded that at Trident (Studios, London) and someone got it wrong and forgot to tell us there was no live drum booth in there. So we ended up setting up the drums in the reception area. It was hilarious...there's me trying to put down the drums for a hit single while phones are ringing and there's courier blokes coming in with parcels, taking their helmets off and watching me."
I agree entirely about what you said in the Q interview recently when you said The Smiths had "a unique sound and we all needed each other." To me, the rhythmic partnership you have with Andy is every bit as important as the Morrissey/ Marr partnership. Do you feel you bring out the best in each other?
"Yeah, we have something very fundamental going on," Mike notes.
"It's all about the way our styles complement each other. Even though we've changed a bit over the years, we've still retained the qualities we have. It's great because it's not indie, baggy, funk or whatever. Can I get away with saying we're a bit like Watts & Wyman in a way?"
Course you can. I see where you're coming from there too...
"Yeah, right (laughs). But we love the idea of complementing a song, it's more of a question of being flexible enough to do what's required for each song and letting the melody and words speak for each other. It sounds tight, but never manufactured, more of a feel thing. The great thing is that we can always sit down and it always feels as good as being back in Drone Studios for the first time in 1983."
The current vogue for all things Moz/ Smiths-related of course makes the dreaded 'unreleased' material chestnut rear its' ugly head. Despite what Mozzer sang on "Paint A Vulgar Picture", is there much of worth in the Smiths' vault?
"Yeah, there's some stuff," replies Mike.
"I know because I kept and collected all the demos and out-takes and have them locked up in a vault actually. When (author) Simon Goddard explained he wanted to do a book about the band he went through them and catalogued them all. There's interesting stuff there, but whether it will ever see the light of day remains to be seen."
What about the obligatory Box Set?
"Well, there are rumours of such a thing," Mike reveals, "but even if there is it'll probably just be the same stuff over again. I mean, I've spoken to Warners about this before and they didn't seem very interested. It's fine, I mean I don't need to release it. There's some good stuff, though, different versions, instrumental versions, the first Drone Studios session....."
|
And the Troy Tate sessions that were originally to become the debut album?
"Yeah, that's always a possibility, but who knows?"
OK, let's talk about your post-Smiths' career. Initially, you and Andy did do some stuff with Morrissey solo, on "The Last Of Tthe Famous International Playboys" and "Interesting Drug" if memory serves. Did it stop because of the legal proceedings you instituted?
"No, it stopped because after Johhny left it didn't work out. I was initially on the phone to him (Morrissey) a lot over a 2-3 week period and it was impossible. I felt frustrated trying to track him down and began to understand what Johnny must have felt after five years of doing the same. Morrisseey did make this comment about "maybe in a year...""
So what happened?
"Well, exactly 365 days leter, Pat Bellis (from Rough Trade) contacted me on behalf of Morrissey. Moz wondered if I'd be interested in some recording and of course I suggested Andy too as there was talk of which bass player to use. Craig (Gannon) was also involved and because we started talking about playing somewhere as a unit the whole comeback thing with Morrissey and his gig at the Wulfrun In Wolverhampton came about."
"The cool thing about it was that apart from playing some of his new songs, we played songs from The Smiths' catalogue like "Sweet & Tender Hooligan"....only songs from the band's catalogue we'd never previously played live."
Yet you'd actually begun legal proceedings (for unpaid royalties) by this time?
"Yeah, my solicitor had been in touch and I never got another call after that," reveals Mike, slightly sadly.
Still, you went from one enigmatic frontman to another by joining Julian Cope's band after that. How was it working with a character famed for excess after Morrissey's monkish leanings?
"Fantastic," Mike exclaims.
"But people don't see that Copey's a real gent. They don't see that side of him at all. Obviously he had his famous, tripped out period ( see Cope's book "Head On" folks), but he was a really lovely family man when I was playing with him. He was really inspirational."
"Plus," Mike continues after a pause, "We had great lads in that band like Donald Ross Skinner, Mike Mooney, Rooster Cosby, who was my old drum roadie in the Smiths in percussion. It's forgotten about now, but at the time (1988-91), live gigs weren't all that popular with raves and dance music ruling, yet that band we had really cooked. The geat thing about Cope is that even if he's not having a great show and he's frustrated, his anger at that is entertaining, so he can't let you down, you know?"
Absolutely. Your last record with Cope was the sprawling double "Peggy Suicide" which was the start of Cope's preoccupation with conservation, Stone Circles and so on. What did you make of all that?
"I dunno what Copey was trying to do with "Peggy Suicide", says Mike, still baffled.
"I don't think he knew where the group should've been going at that stage. It didn't exactly blow me away that album, although I do think "Safesurfer" from it is a great song. After that, Cope hit a barren patch and the group had sort've run its' course, really. That was fine, though."
So you jumped from the frying pan into the fire with John Lydon and PIL?
"Yeah," laughs Mike.
"That was an interesting time too. It was a good band again. John McGeoch, poor fella, was great, and bassist Alan Dias and Lydon was Lydon, what can I say?"
Can you begin to describe what Lydon was like?
"Mmm...angry, aggressive, funny, sarcastic, totally full-on. That's about the best I can do...he was a full-on experience all the time. He doesn't switch off. It was a great experience, a big American tour with BAD, an MTV-sponsored thing. BAD had recently had a minor hit, but even though PIL hadn't we really blew 'em offstage. I loved working with John, though, he's so enigmatic. I couldn't imagine working with a frontman who doesn't have an edge."
What about that story about you contacting Suede about playing with them and them not believing it was you?
"Yeah, that's all true," Mike declares.
"It happened because I was looking through Melody Mkaker and saw this ad for a band that said: "Drummer required - Smiths influence". I thought I had to give that a go."
What happened?
"Well, I made the call and asked them to send me a tape. The guy who was managing them told me they weren't sending tapes out. He asked where I was and I said I was in Manchester. That surprised him, but he said I was too far away. I said: "Why?" and then he asked me who I'd worked with and he went quiet."
The bombshell dropped...
"Yeah, so I got the tape in the end," Mike laughs.
"I did go down and they asked if I wanted to join, this was when Justine (Frischmann) was still involved, but they had too much of a Smiths influence, with the falsetto vocals and so on. Matt Osman (bassist) even played like Andy and if I'd joined it would have only harmed both parties. They were good, though, and I told them I though they would make it in time. Bernard Butler was a phenomenal guitarist."
Of course you also got the chance of playing with your favourite band of all time,The Buzzcocks, as well. How did that come about?
"Yeah, that was really funny because I got a phone call from this guy I didn't recognise. Turns out it's Steve Garvey (Buzzcocks' bassist) and he's got this American accent because he'd been working in New York for about six years. It was hilarious because he's from somewhere like Middleton or Prestwich, on Manchester's north side."
Mike giggles at this.
"Anyway, he tells me the Buzzcocks are reforming...this is 1989 or thereabouts. They'd asked John Maher, of course, but he had a VW garage and he was doing drag racing and the business was his priority, so he'd dropped out because his heart wasn't really in music by then."
So was it really a dream coming true being in your youthful heroes' band, Mike?
"Yeah, I honestly feel it was," he says excitedly.
"I mean, I'd bought everything of theirs and I knew it backwards, so it was like being asked to learn "Happy Birthday", y'know? It was brilliant. I did a bit of recording, bu it got a bit difficult because at the time (Pete) Shelley only wanted to play the old stuff and (Steve) Diggle wanted to do loads of new stuff, so it got a bit awkward after that. So what, it was great whatever."
After all this excitement, you're again in a cool band with Vinny Peculiar and Andy. What did you make of Vinny to begin with?
"Well, Andy and Ben Cook, who does the (label) Shadrack & Duxbury website had a pint in Manchester and Andy had been to see Vinny play and they told me to come down to have a listen. I grabbed a couple of his CDS and checked them out. I was really struck by his songs."
"The thing is, "Mike continues, "After that, I went down to Borders (record and book shop) and bought some other CDs, but they all sounded shit compared to Vinny's stuff. They kept making it to the top of the pile. He's a pleasure to work with too and that's important to me. Friendship is the big thing. Plus, thers's so much in there... I can hear glimpses of Smiths, Cope, Beck, Talking Heads...Can't wait to record with him."
Mike, we're going to have to go, but this has been a real pleasure. Finally, with all this excitement, has there ever been a moment when you thought about getting out of this circus that we call the music industry?
"Not really, I've always had some project or other on the go, even if it's been a small scale on, "Mike reveals.
"I think it's probably a compulsion," he laughs.
"Last year, for instance, I'd been working with Bonehead (ex-Oasis) for a while and I got to thinking, "Do I wanna keep doing this" as I'd just turned forty. Did I really want to carry on sharing vans with stinky-arsed men, playing provincial towns?"
But the answer was yes, of course!
"Of course," exclaims Mike, laughing heartily.
"I can't get this out of my system no matter what. That's the way it should be, right?"
Very wise words indeed, Mike. There's nothing more to say except a huge thank you.
|
